One big fear many organizations have is that they will have to lay off their internal I.T. staff in order to hire an MSP. But as you’ll learn in this episode, that’s not the case at all. When you choose co-managed I.T., you can get the best of both worlds, with the stronger security and 24/7 access of an MSP paired with the in-house specialties of your current team.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the JMARK Business Innovation Technology Experience.
Todd: Hello and welcome to our weekly broadcast of the JMARK Business Innovation Technology Experience. We’re excited to have Howard again. Howard Trumbull. We had Howard, let’s see, what was it? About a month ago or so, and we had a very lively discussion. And so we’re sure we’ll have another lively discussion today.
So we’ve had a lot of requests lately in JMARK Marketing Department to develop more information regarding co-managed IT because we have this service where we do co-managed IT. And we realized that there’s a lot of confusion out there about what co-managed IT? And we also realized that there’s a lot of just maybe misunderstandings about how it can be used and when it can be used and what are the best uses of co-managed IT. And what we’ve seen is a lot of business owners take this stance of it’s one or the other, either I outsource my technology management or I insource my technology management. But the truth is that, and some companies will tell you that that is true. There are many managed services companies out there that will tell you that. But the real truth though is that it’s oftentimes someone somewhere in the middle, every company is a little different, every company has different needs, every company has different growth plans and strategic plans. And that’s where co-managed IT comes in.
Co-managed IT is the idea of internal IT staff, it could be one, it could be more that handles certain aspects of IT management and then an outsourced company like JMARK, who handles other aspects of the IT management. And depending on the skill level of internal staff, depending on the gaps in the organization, the internal IT staff and the outsourced IT company can match up and complement each other very well.
Howard, you’ve seen how co-managed IT works in a lot of organizations inside and outside JMARK, can you talk a little bit about the benefits of co-managed IT and some of the situations where you’ve seen it be a successful strategy?
Howard Trumbull: Certainly. So what you said is exactly right. They are not mutually exclusive. When do you have a partnership in a co-managed IT situation, there are things that are going to be better suited to a MSP. There are enterprise-level tools that an MSP can afford, the coverage that a MSP can provide, the 24/7, 365 kind of coverage, that’s almost impossible to get by internal staffing alone. How many employees do you have to have in order to cover your IT department? And what does it mean to cover your IT department? Are you going to have a day shift and a night shift to cover all of the technologies? Can you hire enough employees of the right caliber and the right skillset to cover all those technologies 24/7, 365 or are you going to set up some way for them to wake somebody up at 2:00 in the morning whenever they don’t know what is happening?
Is that person going to be the best resource at 2:00 in the morning after they’ve had a long, hard day of work? These are the things that an MSP can provide by offering that depth of the batter’s box if you will. There’s going to be somebody that’s fresh and ready to go to cover whatever that is. One of the things that we’re going to try to cover is just the expertise. You can’t get all of the people staffed all of the time. So you’re going to have to find, “Okay, is this the best person that I can put in front of this particular task at this time?” Whether it’s going to be during the day, whether it’s going to be perhaps you have them scaled up in the morning. So then they can get everybody while they’re logging on. That person’s going to want to have a life after work. You don’t want to work somebody 24 hours a day. That’s just not possible.
So you’re going to put them where they are going to create the most value. And then you’re going to allow that co-managed IT, that MSP to fill in those other gaps. So you’re going to look to partner with a company that can fill in the gaps. Can you do the updates? Can you keep my environment secure? Because we have our internal IT over here providing the most value in our database application, in our retail application, whatever that is.
Todd: Yeah. I think that’s … The trigger right there is value. We’re in a time when there’s so much changing in the world and we’ve talked so much about adapting to the new normal. And we have seen just this massive change in organizational or in consumer behavior. And that is changing organizational strategy. And that’s where one of the areas where I see that this type of strategy can be hugely impactful because a lot of times in an organization, you’re running this machine and this machine is solving problems. This machine is dealing with the day-to-day issues. They’re dealing with their current customers. And there is a lack of movement and momentum to innovate and adapt.
That’s where something like co-managed IT can be an amazing strategy because it can redirect the people in your organization to aspects that actually will help them adapt to consumer behavior and to changes in customer behavior. Those changes may be innovative in terms of technology, and maybe they could be a million different things, but I think that is how co-manage IT, even without a crisis going on can have huge business impact in the area of getting out of the cog of just doing what you normally do and be able to focus people and align them to innovation and to growth and allowing people with the right expertise, with the bench of expertise. Like you talked about, Howard to manage those pieces on the backend to make sure they are not doing anything to slow you down. And that technology is only helping to move things forward.
Howard Trumbull: I couldn’t agree more. What I like to do whenever we talk about these co-management scenarios is talk about freeing them. So a lot of it, people that are in-house are bound by these chains of Windows update cycles, firewall update cycles, keeping up with hardware replacement cycles. That is a full-time job. I will tell you, keeping up with all of the hardware, all of the firmwares, all of the updates, did RAM go bad on … The minutiae will eat up your day as an IT person, and that’s not where the greatest value is going to be brought up. Freeing your internal IT people to create that value in strategic thinking, in looking at where the business needs to adapt to, and really bringing that alignment in with the C-suite. That is when co-managed IT really shines.
Dax: I want to add one extra thing that, Howard is that you’re also freeing them up to do something that they’re going to feel passionate about. And to me, when you talk about the value of an employee, passion has to be in the picture because the most passionate employees are very often the most valuable because they are going to be seeking out those solutions that you’re talking about. They’re going to be freed up to do that. And they’re going to see how they’re contributing to the growth of your organization, how they’re contributing to the strategy of the organization, and that creates passion, and that creates growth. And that creates employees that are going out and bringing innovation to the table in new ways because you’re not holding them back by all this constant ongoing, never-ending list of tasks that have to be done. They can free themselves up like you said.
Christina: Yeah, this is all very true and real. We have done a lot of client interviews, so I’ve actually gotten to speak firsthand with in-house IT people that work with JMARK, and everything that you said is true, is everything that he said. I mean, he even mentioned a time where he went on vacation while he was gone, a huge IT disaster situation happened. He didn’t know about it until he got back. Whereas if it was just him, it would have ruined his vacation.
Todd: Yeah. I think there’s so many different areas that we overlook that your typical IT or technology staff have to be experts in. You mentioned a full-time job just applying updates. I mean, keeping up with security is massive, understanding and keeping up with changes and regulations on the compliance side, that many organizations in the industries have to abide by is a huge time suck and often a full-time job. Right now we’re in situations where you have a large number of staff that are working from home and IT staff internally, historically in that type of situation are still dealing with their normal technical issues. Whether it be VPNs or being able to print or access to data, but they’re not looking at all of the security threats that are impounding just over and over and over on the company.
I mean, right now I get phishing attempts in my inbox at least two to four times a day. And they’re usually from prospects that I’ve emailed before, that have internal IT staff or have an outsourced IT company. And it just goes back to this idea we’ve talked about for a while is technology is complex. It is so large. It can destroy your business. It can destroy your model if you’re not careful and if it’s not taken care of, but at the same time, it can be the impeller for success. It can be the thing that moves the needle and helps increase velocity. But a lot of people just look at an internal IT staff or outsource IT as just an expense to keep the wheels running.
Dax: I think it’s important, Todd to note that for internal IT staff, they are very aware most of the time of these things that they’re missing. And it’s a matter of, I have 7,000 things to do, and I have time for 3000 or whatever the number is. And it’s not like they don’t know that there are all these other areas that are being neglected, but when you’re pulled so thin it can be frustrating to that there are these other things too, that should have some focus and that it’s not happening.
Howard Trumbull: Dax. I couldn’t have said that better. Having been in that seat, I can tell you, you know about your inequities, you know the things that you need to do. There are 24 hours in a day, approximately 10 of them are going to be working hours for a really well productive person. You should be there at 8:00, eight hours. But if you’re passionate about what you’re doing and you know the things need to be done, you’re going to be there for 10, 12. Sometimes I worked 16 hours, I tell you because things had to get done. You have to get it done before the end of day because there is going to be a critical situation that occurs if you don’t. So you and your team, you guys, you huddle up, you order the pizza, you get the extra coffee on the burner, and you pull together and you get it done. And that’s today.
What is tomorrow going to be like? Well, you’re all going to be tired, you’re all going to be still just worn out. But you’re going to have challenges tomorrow too. And you’re going to have to greet them with the same level of customer service that you provided the day before. You need to be empathic to the people and the challenges that they’re running into. You need to be on your best foot forward for that strategic meeting that the C-levels are going to need you to be in. And if you’re handling the minutia, if you’re not handling the work that you’re passionate on, you’re handling what you have to do versus what you want to do. You’re going to start seeing that burnout. You’re going to start seeing the lack of care. The it’s all on fire, so what does it matter if any of it’s on fire?
And being able to hand that off, as Christina mentioned there, for that one gentleman that had an emergency while he was on vacation, what does that mean for that person to be able to hand that trust over to somebody else and be able to take a vacation and hit the reset button, and maybe not work 16 hours a day. Maybe you can work on a 10 to 8-hour day and just have one or two emergencies per year you have to deal with rather than something that might occur monthly. As you anyone who’s had any kind of IT experience goes, there are any number of things that become emergencies. When a user can’t do a thing, it becomes an emergency. What kind of emergency is it? How do we prioritize? Do we have ways of getting a workaround?
You’ve got to come up with all of that on your feet, on that last minute, or if you have a co-managed IT solution, perhaps you’ve already documented that, perhaps they have somebody that’s in staff that already knows how to avoid that, or they have enterprise-level experience. So then they know how to keep that from happening again. That’s one of the big differences. You don’t really get to learn that while you’re in the trenches, so to speak. You’re so busy putting out the fires, you don’t know how to prevent those fires. And that’s one of the big things that an enterprise levels co-managed solution brings.
Christina: I have a question for you, Howard. Can you talk about what actually looks like? What is the process of someone hiring JMARK when they are, you have in-house IT?
Howard Trumbull: Certainly, so that partnership needs to be broker from a point of respect, we respect that your IT people have brought you to where you are. They did everything they could with the tools they have. We know that there are good characters, they’re good personalities. We want them there creating the most value for you. So we start looking at what are the gaps? What are the things that aren’t being met? Is it that you need access to better enterprise-level technology? Is it that the day-to-day minutiae is eating up these guys as time? Is it that we need to help them find better training? Is it that we just need to have more of them? How do we have more of your internal staff at more hours per day, more days per month, etc? Those are the gaps that we work to identify, so then we can provide the most value for a particular business environment.
And then we determine whether it’s going to be something where you use our ticketing system. We have a technology that we can share out for our companies and that allows them to have a bi-directional conversation with our staff and their staff in the way of tickets. And then that way you can have a very clear SLA or service level of what the expectations are for certain types of tickets. Not everything’s an emergency on fire, but the ones that are need to be put up forward. And we look at the gaps in technology. We look at the gaps in knowledge, we look at the gaps in coverage, and then we work to them to fill it in the best that we can.
Todd: I haven’t been front and center for one of these onboardings of a co-managed IT company. But I was there for the interview that Christina was talking about and it was … I remember at the end of the interview just being surprised and amazed at everything that he said because you would think there would be a lot of headaches and a lot of pushback from different people. And I can imagine being somebody in charge of the IT staff or a business owner where they’re like, “I don’t even want to deal with the headache of what this would cause.” We’ve talked about this in the past because people get in this mindset and they create this story in their mind of the changing will create so much pain. It’s not even worth the change.
That’s why, not who [inaudible] or JMARK, but that’s not true in our case. We have very defined onboarding processes that take the pain out of such a thing. And like you said, Howard, we go in with the attitude of respect and looking at how we can make a win-win situation for ourselves, for the client, and for the IT staff that’s currently there. So it’s pretty awesome to see that firsthand from one of our clients and hear just the stories of them talking about how many times JMARK has saved the day for them. How JMARK has taken stress off of the internal IT staff and tasks that they didn’t have time to do or didn’t have the experience to do. It’s amazing partnership.
Dax: Todd, just with that final word, you just stole what I was going to say because I was going to bring up this point that we talk, and I know listeners to this podcast have heard the word partner and partnership so many times, but that’s the essence of what we’re trying to do.
I think that’s the fear. And that’s part of what we want to get across today is there is this fear simply of not understanding this co-managed IT process. There is this fear that we are going to come in and be like, “We’re IT, you don’t need that guy anymore, maybe we’ll do everything. We got this from here.” That’s not the case. We are coming in as a partner to supplement you. And I love the word you used Howard, to free up your people and to find the solution that is best for your business so that you can make the best use of the resources that you already have, the great people that are already on your team. And how do you use that to accelerate the velocity of success in your business, and where do you put us to fill in those gaps to make sure that’s what’s happening?
Todd: You mentioned something there that kind of triggered in my mind this idea of fear, and there’s such an unfounded fear that exists in many businesses. And what I’ve seen happen is that people are so focused on a particular strategy or a particular initiative that they lose oversight over the things that could really hurt them. Things a receptionist that opens an email or a salesperson that goes and buys a bunch of eBay cards, because he got a fake message from the CEO saying to do that. And these things happen. They are not a rare occurrence. We see them every single day.
Dax: I was going to point out that you’re not just making up these examples. These are real things that have happened.
Howard Trumbull: While we were talking about fear. One of the things that came to my mind is, and I can tell you as somebody who has had to innovate IT, even when I didn’t really want to, you get everything set, everything’s working, everything’s humming everybody’s machines are working exactly right. Then you cross your fingers as an IT person that this keeps working. You hope that there’s no new Windows update that’s going to break every … You hope that there’s a no new Microsoft patch or a server patch or something that shuts down your entire network. Those exist, and those are out there.
So you create these networks and environments that are stacked, and that is dangerous. That is dangerous. You need to be ready for the change. You need to be analyzing the things that are coming down the path, but that fear of things going down and creating the emergency locks you as an IT person, it locks you into the technology you know, that you can support very quickly and get everybody back up and running, even though sometimes it’s better to move off of that technology and move into technology that provides more value for your end-users, better analytics, or just better value for the business as a whole. We could go into all of those, the varying areas of it, but just the better value for the business, whether it’s uptime or business-related.
And that fear of what if I caused the network to go down, what if I cause a problem that now we’re going to have to build around or lose money? I’m going to lose my freedom because it’s my time, my time with my family, I’m going to lose that time because I’m going to be building servers or I’m going to be begging my boss for money for new switches or whatever it was that got the change impacted. That fear is real. In having a co-managed solution, you’re able to sort of outsource that fear a little bit. You can lean on experts that have already done this.
Again, not to [Huraji] markets on, but we have some really high-level enterprise people in our company that have done … whatever it is that you think that you’re running into. They’ve done it already, probably three or four times. And whenever you’re going to build across this very scary threshold of, “I don’t know what I’m going to do, but I’m about to insert change into my organization.” We can lean on those guys and go, “Yeah, this is the right thing.” Or “No, no, no, we’ve been there. Don’t do that. Here is the thing you should do though.
Todd: Yeah. The other thing too, that I think a lot of people don’t realize is that IT people, they generally are under a pretty tight budget because they are the resource within the organization that is meant to solve the IT problems. And where JMARK has this high-end technology, [inaudible] that I’ve had a lot of experience with things. We also have these high-end systems that most companies don’t have because their IT people are the solution to fixing the problems, things that can monitor the network, things that can determine if something … be behavioral analysis on the network to determine if something fishy is happening. Software that can automate some of the patch management. Software that can do tons of different things on training on security. If somebody were to go in or a company were to go and buy all of these tools that a managed services provider has, they could do the same thing, but they would have this massive cost structure within their organization that is sucking resources.
Christina: So we’ve talked about added security being a big bonus of having co-managed IT. So I have a few very scary facts for you guys. So 62% of small to medium businesses lack the in-house skills to handle cybersecurity. On average there’s a hacker every 39 seconds and 63% of ransomware victims are small businesses, scary stuff.
Todd: Yeah. It doesn’t surprise me at all. The other fact too is that, and Howard, I’m sure you know this. I think it’s 120 days typically that a vulnerability or that a hacker is in your network before it’s discovered.
Howard Trumbull: That’s true. Yeah. I wish I was surprised by some of these numbers. But the only way that I’ve seen them be a surprise is whenever you’re helping a company out of a mess that they allowed themselves to be in. It’s no joke. These hackers are experts. They are experts at what they are trying to do. And whenever they’re looking at your backups, they’re not going to ransomware the backup that’s today’s backup. They’re going to go back in history and they’re going to delete every way that you could have possibly restored. They’re going to hide themselves in your network and do damage in ways that you can’t spot until they decide that it’s time to let themselves be known.
You’re going to go and say, “Hey, no problem. Forget you ransomware guy. I’m going to go back to my backups.” “Oh, wait, those are gone.” Well, I’m going to go to my … “Oh, wait, that’s gone too.” And then you go and say, “Okay, well, I’m going to go to a hypervisor. I’ve got snapshots.” And those are gone. They’ve been in your network doing the damage, making sure that you can’t recover. And then that’s when you know that they’re in your network.
Todd: Yeah. It’s definitely scary out there. And I don’t want anybody hearing this going, “It won’t happen to us.” I mean, we have two prospects that have called us this week alone that have been attacked. And they are not large organizations. They are small 20 to 40 users. And like you said, I mean, there’s just small businesses. And these hackers, they’re not just experts. They’re part of organizations that, that is their business. They have businesses set up in Ukraine and other areas where they are a for-profit business with health insurance and with all these benefits for their employees and their businesses attacking and stealing data and then selling it to the highest bidder.
I think a lot of people also believe that there isn’t any valuable data to have, but that is so false because every single company has valuable data on their people, on their clients. And somebody like an IT company and this goes into the IT experience of internal IT versus the IT experience of an outsourced partner. But even there, you have to really look and say, “Is this company, this IT partner, do they have the experience in security to really protect me?” Because we saw this week another managed IT services company that got hacked and infected all of their clients.
Dax: Yeah. It can be hard sometimes because we shipped this topic of security so often, and it can seem like we’re constantly just repeating ourselves, but these things are so absolutely true and security. IT security has become so complex and it’s only gonna continue to be more complex. And you need experts that can manage that for you. It’s such a vital component of running a business these days.
Howard Trumbull: It is. It is. And in co-managed IT that’s one of the greatest benefits. I would put that the security is probably the number one and then the coverage, the hours coverage is number two. But speaking to that, number one, the security component is how many security experts on staff can your IT department afford? IT experts are already a higher more expensive tier of employee in your company. And to what Todd said earlier, most companies IT budgets include your salary. Well, that’s one portion of it. Yes. But what about the solutions? What about the actual software that’s going to keep us secure? What about the automation technology that’s going to keep watching over us? What about any kind of logging technology that’s going to correlate all of the logs, put it together and figure out where the bad guys are and how to keep them out?
A lot of companies don’t see that as part of the IT expense. And with co-managed, you’re able to do almost … you can eat buffet of IT expertise. You have security experts, you’ve got server experts, network experts, desktop experts, that are experts in all of those things because they’re complex fields. And the security one will shut down everything else if you don’t have it. If you don’t have a tightened security profile for your network, for your firewalls, for your policies, you’re going to find where that weakness is because the bad guy, they’re going to find where that weakness is. And then you’re going to log in one day and see that the ransomware is already done. It’s in the past. And now you have to rebuild your network, or unfortunately, sometimes work with those attackers and get your data back and pay them with Bitcoin or whatever.
But if you can sort of leave the co-managed people to manage that for you, your in-house IT guys can provide that value on the application side, and then they can sleep well at night, knowing that there’s an enterprise-level company watching over their shoulder to make sure things are secure.
Christina: I have a question. I’m guessing that it’s safe to say that co-managed IT is not necessarily the answer for every business. What are some things that a business owner can be on the lookout for to say, “Okay, maybe it’s something I should consider.?”
Howard Trumbull: Well, unfortunately, the first thing I would have to say is budget. It all comes to budget. If you can’t afford to pay for an IT department, for a fully staffed IT department, it needs to go somewhere. That work can’t be ignored. It can’t be left behind. Earlier we had been talking about Windows updates and patches and things. Yes, it’s tedious work. Try ignoring it, try not doing that work because it’s tedious and you’re not passionate about it. You’re going to find out that you’re actually very passionate about the lack of those things because nobody’s machine is going to work or the bad guys get into it by something very simple. So you need to look at what your exposure is, what the risk of your company is of not having those things, setting an appropriate budget. Does your budget allow for two or three very smart people in your organization? If not, you start at a MSP or Managed Solutions Provider, you have to Managed Services Provider.
Somebody has to be watching the hen house, so to speak. And there are companies that have large enough budgets that they can say, “Hey, I can afford an MSP, but I can augment that with a person internally to make sure that we get the value for our end-users. We need somebody that’s there within moments to answer certain questions or keep certain things running.” And if you don’t have that, what’s the cost of that downtime? Can you afford to have any kind of downtime for a particular department or a retail division or shipping department? All of those divisions within a company have their own costs associated with them. And you can figure that out that cost per minute of downtime or cost per hour of downtime.
And you can say, “Okay, here’s how much we can afford to be down. Here’s what that alternate cost is.” And then you look on the other side of the budget sheet and you say, “Okay, hey IT department, how do we mitigate that?” And if the answer is, “I have no idea how to mitigate that.” The next step is, “Hey, co-managed IT, or MSP, how do we mitigate that?” Because we can’t afford the opposite. We can’t afford to have our websites be down. We can’t afford to have our accounting department sitting on their thumbs because the main application, the line of business application is down. We’ve got to run checks. There are penalties. If you don’t run your checks on time and you don’t pay your employees on time. What does that look like? Suddenly the cost of IT looks pretty cheap whenever you look at the cost of not doing it correctly.
Todd: I think another thing too, that a lot of companies overlook is the strategy component because internal IT rarely has the expertise on technology strategy to create budgets that are longterm, truly understand the ramifications of certain regulations that are hitting their industry, truly understand the changes in how just what technology is doing. And we work with companies that they have a CIO that does some of that stuff, and we augment it with our industry knowledge and with our expertise. And when we have companies that they have no strategy component, there’s no CIO to really help them from a technology side and figure out where things are going and where they need to go. And that’s a big piece where JMARK can come in and like you said, we have server experts and desktop experts and network experts, but we also have strategy experts that help our clients to create five-year technology plans, that help them to look at changes that are happening in the economy and in the industry and to suggest and help implement strategies that will help them overcome and achieve.
Dax: Yeah, I think I always think of it that way. What you talked about, Howard is the first step, what’s the cost of downtime? And then the next step, we always talk about leveling up your business. The next step is what is the cost of the lost opportunities of not having strategies that Todd is talking about? Of not having the knowledge and the access to knowledge to merge the technology and business into a strategy that’s going to accelerate your business. And that is a vital component of becoming the best version of your business.
Howard Trumbull: It is. And you know another one there that ties in with strategy that is sometimes overlooked is working through cross verticals. So whenever you’re in your own vertical, whether that is hospitality, financial, medical, you end up with sort of blinders, you end up with the strategy and technology blinders that are specific to your vertical. What is this other medical center doing? What is this other hospital doing? If you’re in the financial sector, what are the other tax offices doing? There are technologies that work through these verticals. And you, “Whoa, well, this is working really well for the medical industry.” And the basis of it is compliance or policy. Well, that’s going to work pretty well over in another compliance-driven organization such as banking or financial. And you say well, “Hey, did you know this technology exists?” And this is working really well. Or these strategies we’ve seen them pay off for these medical centers 5 years, 10 years? Well, “Yeah, they’re a large hospital, of course, it works with them.”
Well, did you know that we are able to pair that down into this, this, this, and that’s going to work for you? We have that kind of insight because we work through all of the verticals. So we see something working very well here, we say, “Hey, why not? Let’s look at how this is going to work here.” We’re able to work with our partner companies and say, “Hey this technology has been working. This partnership has been working. Let’s push that through your organization.” And we’ve seen great benefits out of that.
Todd: Yeah, I think that we’ve definitely answered the question today of should you fire your IT staff if you hire, or if you do co-manage IT, or if you hire an outsource company? The answer is most likely not. There are a lot of different strategies that we can employ. There are a lot of different benefits. There are a lot of things that business owners are not looking at to … they’re distracted by current things that we’re working on that are dangerous and that have to be looked at. And these are the kinds of things that a true partnership with a managed services company, with an internal IT person or staff can have just massive success in helping an organization to improve their strategic value, improve the changes that they’re trying to innovate on, and create for their own organization and their own customers and clients, and to secure themselves and make sure that they are not another tick on somebody else’s belt of being hacked into.
And so at JMARK, we do co-manage IT. We have a lot of different software and a lot of different solutions for the service. Love to welcome you to contact us, come over to our website and take a look at some of the material we have, or give us a call. And we will talk with you more about it, see how we can help. Thanks.
Speaker 1: Thank you for attending this podcast. We hope it has been informative and help convey that a JMARK, we are people first and technology second. To learn more and discover additional content relevant to your business. Please visit us online at jmark.com or at LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. You may also call us at 844-44-JMARK. Thank you for your time. And we look forward to seeing you again.